My Hall of Fame vote

McGwire yes!! Did he take steroids? I do not care. I said it I do not care. I want to be entertained and he did that. The season he hit 70 was awesome to watch and baseball was baseball. No of the others taking steroids hit 70.
Goosage - don't know

Dawson - Yes. The hawk should be in.

Raines - not this year.

Jack Morris - ?

TR,

I guess we are a selected few who aren't going to say, "Cheater!", when considering McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, et al, for a spot in Cooperstown.

We can get SO focused on the hoopla, and all the people being tarnished with a broad brush, because they wanted to prolong their career, rehab faster, or hopefully help them statistic-wise.

I might remind detractors that just because say a Palmeiro took HGH or steroids, this was no ASSURANCE that he would hit any more homeruns, hit for a higher average, or run faster. All it could promise them was the HOPE it could help. The player still had to hit a pitched ball thrown at 90+ MPH, and drive it over the wall or hope it would fall between outfielders. Nothing is guaranteed to them...even elongating their career.

Should someone say, like Kirby Puckett, a great ballplayer and guy, one day woke up and lost the sharpness in his eyesight, then overnight your career can be over.

Saying this is not a defense of those who took steroids/HGH to simply, "have an edge," but it is on par with a student in college, wanting to cram for a final, so for "an edge" drinks some powerful "caffeine-laced" drink. Still the student has to mark the right answers.

I'm frustrated like anyone else on this beloved blog about Steroids/HGH, but it is not talked about anywhere else in society...to my knowledge, the huge behemoths in the NFL never get singled out for "suspicion" of steroids. The NBA and NHL? Never hear any "discouraging words" from those sports. Never hear anyone bellyaching about it except in the UIL, as, PROPERLY, they don't want the athletes to begin the process of taking such substances which can make the bones very brittle. I applaud the schools for this...but it is not illegal on pharmacy shelves, health food shops, gym shelves, Senior-oriented radio info-mercials, etc...so, why are we singling out baseball?

I personally cannot stomach Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, and more on the list--yet, I totally agree in voting for Mark McGwire for the Hall of Fame. His statistics say he should be in. The value judgement of Steroids is a false one. Even if he took an "edge" such as HGH, etc, he STILL MUST HIT A BATTED BALL OVER THE FENCE WITH A CAREER CONSISTENCY like he did. . .just remember the student cramming for finals, looking for an edge and drinks "Jolt" or some caffeine concoction--he still must mark the right answers or he fails. Caffeine or not.

TR - I think you'll have to defend your selections more with your peers that the rest of the world.

As for the more mercurial nod to Mark McGuire, he was primarily vilified for his use of Andro, a substance you could wander down to Parks Mall and buy all you wanted at the time over the counter. Without a prescription or any other kind of referral, this was an unregulated product. Injectables on the other hand have a bit more regulation to go with them. Mark was only ever rumored for anabolics (apparently Sen. M could not find any corroboration) and the "Report" did not single him out for anything other than Andro (unless I am mistaken and yes I did go thru the whole thing)

Regardless of the technicalities of the compounds, I beleieve most experts will confirm that the use of these substance does not improve things like hand - eye coordination. All of the strength/bat speed in the world does no beget anything but broken bats without timing and coordination, much less the HR ball...

So it is my understanding that a reasonable HOF ballot compares a player to his contemporaries. If so, then Mark, Sammy, and others deserve at least consideration in the face of the "Report".

Every sport on the face of the earth has had to deal with the controversy of those living on the edge pursuing every gray area to gain an advantage. Some may just not involve needles...

NASCAR

CYCLING

OLYMPIC Events

The list can go on.

Bottom line is, forget about judging the past, acknowledge the mistakes, make alterations, and move forward. Anything else is likely nothing more than an a vindictive, self-serving exercise in futility...

Hey world, it was legal to drink when I was 18. I drank alcohol then, but it's not legal now for those who are under 21. Will you persecute and judge me along with the the thousands of others for what we did that was legal then?

Yes, a rather simplistic and silly analogy, or is it?

I endorse four out of five of your choices. The one I do not agree with is Tim Raines, I would rather see Jim Rice.

Baseball Almanac includes several baseball eras, e.g., dead ball era, lively ball era, millinneum era, postwar era, etc.

So proclaim a steroid era and move on.

Nothing in baseball remains constant for a very long time. The fences move in and out, the mound is raised and lowered, the gloves grow in size, the baseballs are either dead or lively, the players prior to repeal of the reserve clause worked to support their families in the off-season now wealthy players have year round conditioning, initially the players were all white now they come from all over the world.

There is no reason to put asterisks by Roger Maris and Barry Bonds names in the record book for there is no common denominator to compare records made in one era and broken in another.

Mark McGwire should be voted into the Hall. He is the all time career leader in rate of HR hit (AB/HR). Babe Ruth is second. Barry Bonds is third and Hank Aaron ranks 33rd.

My biggest problem with HOF voting is that I don't think it gets treated as elite as it should be. Raines and Morris are not the elite IMO. I think cases can be made for Dawson and Gossage, but I put them more on the border along with Rice. I'm just of the opinion that it should be a place for the elite superstars, and too many get in that aren't that...

Bravo TR!!! I agree with your choices and appreciate your stand on Mark McGuire.
I would ADD Alan Trammell, a better choice than Ozzie, and would lean toward adding Dale Murphy. But certainly the 5 you voted for merit induction.

What a great discussion. I could read comments like that all day. All of you make excellent points that I agree with and a few I disagree with. As far as the HOF candidates, I would definately vote for McGwire, Gossage, and Dawson. I am not convinced on any of the others at this point. I do wish that the HOF was a place reserved for the ELITE in all sports. I think at this point it is just a place reserved for the great.

I must make a hearty endorsement of brianbodnar's comment above.

The Hall of Fame enshrines the elites: Mays, Ruth, Aaron, Feller, Marichal, Speaker, Cobb, Ted Williams, Mantle, Gibson, et al....LONG MAY THOSE GREATS be enshrined.

To have a Hall where a good player gets in, but not a GREAT player, it devalues everyone in my opinion. Ted Williams should definitely be in the Hall, but Bernie Williams should not. Bernie has won many World Series, and is a good, classic hitter and guy, but the Hall should remain where the truly greats are.

I'd prefer adding one guy, maybe on a semi-regular basis...not make it to the point where players HAVE to be voted on and lesser players get in each and every year.

To me, Dale Murphy is a good, solid ballplayer, on a good team, for a long time. But is he Dimaggio, Frank Robinson or Willie McCovey? I think not.

Please let's keep the Hall of Fame, for elite ballplayers. If we need to why not a Special Place of Recognition for these borderline/marginal guys, like a plaque with their statistics outside the main room or gallery at Cooperstown? Honor them, absolutely. But enshrine Tim Raines with Ted Williams or Rogers Hornsby? Perish the thought!

Good point brianbodnar, and fozzie, too.

No matter what group or ranking, there always has to be a baseline, the least best qualified to be in the group, kind of like Baylor in the Big 12.

You can take them out and improve the quality of the group but there still has to be a baseline. I feel comfortable with Raines and Morris being inside the baseline.

This year. You start cutting the baseline and you could get to a point where a guy like Willie McCovey is borderline.

And I love Willie McCovey. But I'm sure Jim Rice fans can use McCovey to make a case for Jim Rice.

TR... intersting choices - I can't really say I disagree with any of them.

But I'd just like to add a mention of a guy, who in my opinion, should have been in the HOF a long time ago: Bert Blyleven. 287-250 career W/L record, 3.31 career ERA, 3,701 career SO's, and 60 career SHO's. This guy had possibly the best duece in baseball, save for maybe Sandy Koufax or Cy Young himself. I've just never understood why he isn't in the HOF yet. I know he had a reputation as being quite a prankster throughout his career, which is why he's fallen out of favor with the HOF people - don't know whether that's true, but I'd tend to beleive it, 'cause if memory serves, Bert has been up for election several times, and he's been snubbed from the Hall repeatedly.

TR: Excellent comparison or analogy about the bottom baseline. Baylor is a great example. They deserve to be in the Big 12 like Tarleton State deserves to the Big 10.

We have our illustrious former head of state, Mrs. Ann Richards to blame in forcing Baylor into the Big 12, where it does not belong at all, at all. Way overmatched. I could easily see TCU in the Big 12, but lest we forgot, Annie Richards was a Baylor alumni. Case closed. Her being a Baylor alumni was the ONLY reason Baylor went into the Big 12, along with other STATE schools: UT, A&M, and Texas Tech.

Your analogy does show the Hall must have lower-echelon people WITHIN the Hall. Everyone is certainly NOT a Hornsby, Williams or Drysdale. We know Baylor isn't either, but unfortunately, that's politics. Good analogy, and one I hadn't thought of TR.

I guess the tough part is voting on HIGHER-rated players in the LOWER echelon. When everything is down to basics, I suppose it really is based on personal feelings about the player.

Maybe Juan Gonzalez will qualify some day! Just kidding. The Yankee beatwriters might elect him anyway.

There is a book on the subject of who does and not deserve to be in the baseball HOF. It was written by Bill James and titled "The Politics of Glory" with the subtitle "How Baseball's Hall of Fame Really Works".

There are several examples of players that never were considered that have comparable records to elite players. One example is Vern Stephens who played for the Browns and Red Sox. His numbers are similar to Stan Musial and most of his career he played in the same ball park as Stan.

Other examples are players that are in that James said are there only because they played for the Yankees. He concludes that Phil Rizzuto is there for that reason.

Yet another (non-Yankee) is Don Drysdale.

In addition the hall is loaded with players from the 1930 era. James attributes this fact to Frankie Frisch who headed up a group that were to review players of the past for consideration to being placed in the Hall. Frisch played in the 1930s against or with those selected for entry.

Agree with his opinions or not it is an interesting read.

By the way Bingo, Baylor is not a STATE school.

Congrats on your vote for McGwire. I agree completely, and it is about time that some of these baseball writers get off the ole high horse. It is not our job to judge everyone's morality, especially when we don't have sufficient information to do so. Kudos to you on this one TR.

Now about that Sammy for Rangers MVP ???

To follow-up on r-wolff above: If you re-read my text about Baylor above, I wrote it with Baylor separately, and then included the "Other" State schools.

I guess it could have been read both ways, sorry. I thought I separated the groups, but if it was read the incorrectly-intended way, I could have done better in my word usage. Sorry wolff.

I did know Baylor is a private school. Thanks--the clarification was needed.